25 The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group (Read 20373 times)
Ranger
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #10 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 4:51am
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Traveller,

I would go with two tandems and one kayak, if available for rent. I've done that before with a 5-man group, and I took my kayak. A decent paddler in a kayak can easily outpace a canoe, IMO.

I have a ~14' plastic OT kayak. I slid an internal frame pack up under the front deck and a decent sized dry bag under the rear deck. Plus it was very stable to fish from. Carry it over portages with a removable yoke.

Ranger
  
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gopackers12
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #11 - Apr 11th, 2010 at 2:50pm
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I ran into this same issue on my last trip into the Q.  We ended up with 5 people when a group member pulled out at the last minute. When deciding between the options of 3 canoes or 2 canoes, these thoughts came into play:            
1) We had a couple newbies, so inexperience in the stern would have been a factor.  We had 2 members of the group that were the most capable.
2) We thought taking only 2 canoes might allow us to carry everything in one trip across portages.
3) We didn't think anyone would be able to keep up solo.
3) No one wanted to sit ackwardly on the canoe bottom for 7 hours at a clip with a canoe bar in their back.

We ended up taking 2 canoes, and we managed every portage with 1 trip across (a huge plus  Smiley).  The same 2 paddlers manned the sterns the entire trip, while the remaining 3 switched off equal time between the bows and the middle of 3 person canoe.  It turned out fine, and we said we were glad having done it that way.  The only downfall was trying to fish 3 people out of a canoe after we found that deep water walleye hot spot, but we were able to pull it off.  At one time we actually had a lake trout and 2 walleyes on the 3 lines at the same time.  Pandemonium in a canoe.
  
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Mad_Mat
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #12 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 2:00pm
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generally, a good paddler in a solo canoe can keep up with good paddlers in a tandem if you keep to a reasonable pace (i.e not flat out as fast as you can go) - a not so good paddler will have more trouble keeping up with a tandem team, even if they are also not so good - its just easier in a tandem

the difference isn't so much in speed as in the amount of work it takes to keep up that pace.  The solo paddler is going to be working harder, especially in headwinds where you can't just coast for a bit to take a break.  Consider also that that difference is cumulative - you'd be wanting to switch off in the solo.

I bought my first solo boat for a 3 person trip and never looked back.



  
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jjcanoeguide
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #13 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 3:17pm
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Lots of recommendations for the solo option, but I guess it's no surprise because many on this forum typically travel solo.  I guess this could be a good trip to try out solo paddling, but I'd recommend a trial run on a lake near your home.  That way, if you hate it, you're not stuck for several days.

Although I'd love to try it, I have not paddled a solo canoe, but don't mind soloing in a tandem canoe.  If you decide on 3 people to one canoe, I'd highly recommend the Souris River 18.5' with 3rd seat.  Many outfitters in Ely have it, and it's very spacious and comfortable for 3 people.  Frankly, 3 people to a canoe is my prefered travel method, as it helps with single or 1.5 portaging.  I dislike a group size of 7 the most.  With all 3 people paddling, a canoe will flat out fly, even in a headwind.  However, fishing while traveling does indeed pose a challenge.  Since a few members of our regular group don't fish, have no interest in fishing, and don't even really like the taste of fish (heresy, I know!) it isn't a problem.  They get to relax in camp, explore the woods, catch up on reading, or whatever else they like to do.  Meanwhile, we have enough canoes to have 2 fishers in each, and our travel speed means we have a lot of time to fish once we get to camp.  Just take stock of your group's personalities, abilities and goals to make your decision.

  
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grizzlylarso
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #14 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 3:37pm
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Talking about two tandems and a kyak. I did a trip like that a long while back, except it was three people, 1 tandom and me in a kyak. It worked out pretty well that way because the bulk of the gear went in the tandem and there wasn't as much of the packing/ unpacking of the kyak at portages. I just left the little bit of stuff I had in the hatches in there on the portages, took a little to figure out the balance but not too bad after that. There was two newbies in the tandem and I easily outpaced them with the kyak. For the portages, I used a kyak yoke that spring creek makes. It was a little hassle to strap it on and off at every portage but since I could travel faster I usually just kicked it up a bit before each portage and had it ready to go and often over the portage before the tandem got there so I could carry their stuff over also.
  
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solotripper
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #15 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 5:14pm
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 They make portage yokes for kayaks, they have them in the Piragis catalog.
 I wouldn't under any circumstances put a Newbie in a solo canoe, at least not in a place like the BW/Q.

I paddled a SR Tranquility my first time solo in the Q. It was an early model that Quetico Dave had for rent. It was a nerve racking experience for the first few days. Mid-May, the weather was up and down. It was very tippy feeling to me, but I got used to it after a few days of trial and error.
 
The worst part, was my packs which are fine for tandem width canoes, didn't fit in solo. I had to turn them on there side, which left them sticking above gunnel's, which I really hate. In crosswinds they caught air like sails and added to the drama Grin
 
My one and only dunking came in that solo canoe. Part bad judgment on my end, high center of gravity on the SR's.
 
The new models have adjustable height seats. They also seem to have a different seat frame set-up, compared to the old one.  
 I'd make damn sure your packs can be stowed BELOW the gunnel's, and keep the seat as low as you can, and still be comfortable.

No one has mentioned it, but as a dedicated double paddler, I'll throw it out. Unless you have kayak experience, you'll have a learning curve with a double kayak paddle too. The solo will carry more gear, and is easier to unload and portage. You could always carry just the packs that fit in easy from the other canoe(s). With an experienced paddler/fit paddler, that solo with a double paddle should be able to keep up with a tandem at a normal cruising pace once the solo paddler gets the hang of the double, which he will have to do if you go the kayak route.
 
I rent a SR16 Kevlar tandem, and paddle from front seat. I won't say I can keep up with a tandem that's going all out, but I move along pretty well, fast enough for most situations.

Another very important thing, is making sure your loaded correctly. Slightly bow heavy will work in most situations, other than a real strong tailwind.  Being out in open water is no time for wishing you had the right load set-up Cry
  
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Preacher
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #16 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 6:07pm
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Personal preference.  
Depending on the boats & paddler skill, a solo could outperform a tandem.  
Last year I had no problem in a Swift Heron keeping up with a Wenonah Prospector.  The difference being 1' in length and width giving the Heron a L:W ratio of 7.6 & the Wenonah being 4.9.  With equal power applied the Wenonah goes near half as fast.  Incomplete calculations, but a decent guideline for basic efficiency.

What is meant by no solo experience?  Never soloed a canoe or never paddled a dedicated solo?  Going from soling a 16' to a dedicated solo is awesome.  You never felt so pampered in all your life.  Going from never solo to soloing depends on your skilz.  If you know your strokes, at least 4 different strokes, should be no problem.

I think the biggest problem with a solo canoe in the mix is becoming windbound.  Tandem can handle a lot more gnarly action than a solo.
  
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #17 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 8:13pm
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Thanks for all the great  input.  Here's a little more information--I hope people will continue to chime in.

1)  By "no solo experience", I meant "no experience paddling solo, period." 

2)  Not newbies (about 10 Q trips), but not accomplished technical paddlers.  I know the J and C, and occasionally use the pry and draw but that's about it.

3)  Unfortunately, I don't think that kayak will be an option due to logistics.  Our outfitter doesn't appear to offer them (and we're going directly from Minneapolis to LLC).

I'm tempted by the solo (I'd be the one in it most of the time), but am concerned about staying upright and keeping up.  I like swimming as much as the next guy, but . . . .

  
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mastertangler
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #18 - Apr 12th, 2010 at 9:35pm
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Traveller,
Most of my tripping has been done in a bell merlin which is a true solo. When I first gave her a whirl the seat came from the factory hiked rather high which naturally gave me a higher center of gravity and the craft really felt unstable. I installed a set of "seat drops" which really helped give me confidence.

I would suggest splitting up your gear somewhat so you have some options in distributing weight. I have one "main pack" but I also have 3 smaller dry bags which can ride behind me. After loading give her a good looking over to see how she's riding. I generally like her to be level.

I can't speak for other solos (although I would suspect similar handling) but mine has an initial stability and a secondary stability. Sometimes the boat might feel unsteady but lean her over a tad and mine tightens right up.

You will also probably be surprised at how the solos can handle the rough. Mine just bobs like a cork. It can actually be rather invigorating. I'm a chicken though and usually hug the shoreline when it's snotty.

While I'm no vet compared to some on this site, I have done a fair amount of traveling in the "Q" over the past 10 years. I've dumped my boat twice while getting in after loading. I'm no Klutz, make good time on portages and it is rare indeed when I have a spill so these events were shockers to me. But they happened and I'm not too proud to admit it. One dump was just plain being exhausted and stupid and not watching what I was doing. The other was a bit more subtle. Picture loading up next to a rounded rock (of which there are plenty) which catches your boat amidship. If you mistake this "side grab=false stability" for a rock which has caught the bottom of your vessel it will release at the most inopportune time I can assure you.

If you embrace the solo canoe experience I believe you will find it very rewarding. I certainly have. You will have the best of both worlds, paddling your own vessel but yet company at the campsite. 



  
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Snow_Dog
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Re: The Dreaded Odd-Numbered Group
Reply #19 - Apr 13th, 2010 at 2:34am
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Sounds to me like deep down, you *want* to solo but you just need a push to convince you it's OK...or maybe it's your friends that need convincing that you won't slow them down?

Soloing isn't nearly as difficult as it seems when you've never done it.  I was a diehard tandem canoeist until last year when it was either solo or stay home for me.  I took a 9-day solo trip and I'm very glad I took the plunge (figuratively speaking only).  Up until the moment I shoved off I had no experience in a solo canoe.

The butterflies lasted about halfway across Inlet Bay on Basswood.  After that I felt very comfortable.  I tried a double-bladed paddle but that style of paddle uses different muscles, so I switched over to a single-blade and didn't lose all that much speed. 

I'm in decent-but-not-fantastic shape for my age and I had little difficulty keeping up with tandems that were heading in the same direction as me down the S-Chain.  They weren't racing me or anything, but they weren't loafing around either.

I got into some hefty headwinds and was still able to keep a decent steady pace of travel.  I even accidentally got into some surf that only an idiot would try to canoe thru and I managed to stay afloat until I could reach calmer water.  The key is to stay loose in your seat, keep your torso centered and vertical and let the canoe roll with the waves under you.  The canoe WANTS to stay upright.  Usually when it doesn't it's because someone panicked and made a dumb move.

4 travel days on your loop is not going to kill you in a solo, either.  I've done that same loop several times and none of the days is particularly difficult.  You'll do just fine.

I'm in a party of 3 this year.  A tandem plus me in a solo.  I can't wait to get out there again in my own canoe!
  
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