In Florida, yellow is a popular color for braided line.  To that you tag on 2 to 3 feet of 25-pound (or so) monofilament leader, to which the lure is attached. 

For a Minnesota guy, this has prompted a two-part question:

a. can fish see color?  If so, yellow is a bad choice for line.

b. the mono leader makes the above question moot. But in the QP I tie my crankbait directly to the braided line, foregoing swivels or leaders for better action.  How many others tie jigs, lures, etc., directly to their braided line? 

If the answer to "a." is yes, then I've got to change my braided line before venturing north. 

prouboy

Unless I'm fishing jigs, I always use ball bearing snap swivels. Eliminates line twist. Easier to change lures. Lure runs truer.

Since I have started using ultra-thin titanium/nickel alloy leaders that are stretchable and highly kink resistant, I don't even consider fishing without a leader. The swivels generally wear out before these leaders ever kink.
If you can tie a trilene knot in fishing line you can tie your own leaders with titanium. It's a little weird to work with at first really quite simple. 25lb test is my fave. I'll have a few leaders at Copia for those who will be there.

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I do not use leaders when jigging but do use a snap swivel with jig spinners to prevent line twist.

KF,

I notice the 25 lb leaders come in 15 or 30 foot lengths.  Do you use the entire 15 foot length or cut into smaller pieces?   

Earth to Prouboy.........earth to prouboy......

Did you already buy your yellow line? Yikes......take it back and fast. No "here I am" line allowed while fishing backcountry or near shore. Yellow line is fine when your trying to keep track of offshore trolling spreads but the kiss of death otherwise.

Heres the deal.......get some 30lb green power pro and add a 30lb floro leader of some 2 or 3ft. You need fingerless gloves and plenty of practice to get mono and braid to stick......but if you want to catch 'em that is the accepted method. If the snook are running big then 40lb is the ticket and if big trout are your game then 20 or even 15 is the way to go (I have caught plenty of big trout on 6lb mono before I learned you can't catch them on line that light ).

No yellow line on my boat.......no white T shirts......and no more than 2 consecutive bad words uttered when the line breaks up underneath the mangroves ......."I know it all happened very fast, when you stop shaking you can tie on another hook"

pine_knot wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 2:44pm:


I like 8" - 12" leaders. It takes about 15" of material to make a 12" leader. If you screw up a knot (or two) you end up with a 10" or 12" leader or less.

It takes a little practice and patience like learning any new knot with new material. You will make a few mistakes and you will learn from them.

Don't ask why but your reference to rock music and camo triggered a vision of Apocalypse Now.......something about loving the smell of fish guts in the morning. Sure, we can talk about who we have seen in concert......led zeppelin and Zappa were awful live while Queen, Santana and Iggy Pop were amazing.

Going to try and swing it......chomping at the bit to go. If your boat has any size cross the harbor and fish bull and turtle bay. Hit every point that has current. Live sardines put lots of fish in the boat.

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 6^th, 2014 at 5:58am:


KF -- so you buy your own swivels to make your own leaders, correct?  What type?

I won't be at 'copia, so won't have the advantage of seeing you and the leaders.  But I'm intrigued.  No more bite-offs?  No more lost lures?  Or at least fewer of both.  I like that idea. 

prouboy

It is surprising how many fish one can catch without any bite-offs using straight mono. I have sometimes gone a year or more without getting bit off.

However there are lures with notable exceptions. Jigs get nipped and erratic lures such as spoons often get nipped and consequently I will not use a spoon without a leader.

I lost what I can't help but believe was a pike of a lifetime on Burntside this past summer. Nailed a rather long multi jointed crank. Did she bite me off, rub up against a rock or just break the line with a massive kick of her tail I just don't know. The leader would of been nice and I might of just had quite a pic if I was using the skinny flexible wire KF advocates.

I am of a mixed mindset concerning the wire having always been of a "stealth" mindset when trying to put the very largest walleyes in the boat. I am not about numbers at all and small fish hold little interest for me. Will the wire turn off the big marble eyes? That is the question.

Jax I am not excited about your intention of having a 3 or 4 foot leader using a snap that you will be unable to reel through your eyelets. That is 3 or 4 ft of line out there at boat side while you try to handle the fish. Potentially awkward.........been there, done that. On the other hand I did not have lots of success tying Floro to 832 although I know of folk who do it. Maybe I didn't try hard enough but my usual system (power pro to floro) didn't seem to hold that well and thus my displeasure with 832.

Yup, often a bit hilarious how many folk want to reel the fish right up to the eyelet and a few want to reel the fish right through them

I'm trying to picture your landing method. If you grab the line with one hand and your rod is in the other then either you live near a nuclear power plant and have grown a third hand or you have someone help you remove or land the fish?.......or you set your rod down.. And that my friend is a distinct no-no in MT's world of piscatorial pursuits. But hey, we all have our own style and that is what makes fishing fun.

Pretty snazzy.......I would like to see Jaximus Maximus in action some day 

What if the fish decides to peel out? Do you not have to release your finger and thus have some slack from the time of the release until the rod loads? Plus you have the loss of concentration while you have to grab the line with your finger do you not? Unless of course your fish is so played out it just sort of floats belly up.......(I hated that I lost that fat slob of a laker because she was so played out........sort of suckethed).

So, i'm giving you all sorts of Jazz about your landing prowess I'm sure you have it down but somehow I just can't quite put my head around it.

Something about that boga.......Get the fish boat side fairly quick and snatch it up. Nice handle to control him (or if your lucky, her) and a quick reach for the pliers and a "flop/splash" back in the water......hey, I never even touched line, lure or fish........whaddaya know bout that". Bada bing and I'm back in business.

But what do I know.......I got my tail kicked last time in canoe country and had to eat a fat slice of humble pie. Wasn't so bad though.......I like fishing with good anglers, it only makes you better.  up 

I can easily imagine what Jax is saying. In my case, I don't pluck but rather press on the rim of the spool to maintain tension since the bail is open and the fish is within easy reach of my other hand. If it's small I grab it and do whatever. For bigger, toothy fish, I'll slide my hand under their belly and lift slightly which will basically immobilize 'em as I set my rod down - with the bail already open ... just in case something highly unusual happens.

From there it's usually a simple matter of deciding whether to grab the pliers the stringer or go in for a closer inspection. If it's hooked deep all bets are off but ideally, fish do not normally get past the rail of my canoe.

If it's a really big, I assume they are embarrassed by that point and really don't want to be measured, weighed and have their picture taken with me anyway. I know that would stress me out so once I can see what I caught, if it's not pan worthy that day, I give them every leisurely opportunity to spit the hook I have time for. Most don't or can't but I do offer the opportunity since my thrill has already been realized by then.

There is one other advantage to using a metal leader that MT hinted at in an earlier post. I fish for walleyes almost exclusively and any good walleye fisherman knows that means that I am in constant contact with the bottom. That also means that my lures and the first couple feet of line are taking a beating esp when trolling. Having that first foot of titanium leader is some protection from all of the nicks and abrasion. I still have to check and tie often but not quite as much and I know that even if I have just tied when that first good fish makes a dive for the rocks I know I have a foot of durable metal out front protecting the line.

ok, i've never met a leader that i've liked, to the point that i nearly stopped using them altogether. it's not that i don't WANT to use them, i do, and am entirely convinced this tie-able titanium is THE answer. 
KF:
what size ball bearing do you use with the 25# wire (0 or 2 hoping)?
Have you tried a quality snap on the end and just and 1 bearing on the line end, and if so do you see a problem with it?
Just got back from BassPro and although they carry knot2kinky online, it looks like they don't stock it in-store.

Puckster wrote on Mar 10^th, 2014 at 1:06pm:


No, Fleet and Farm, Bass Pro Shop or Cabela's have plenty of snaps and swivels to pick from.

When I started doing this I salvaged snaps and swivels from all of my narly old leaders that I had but most of that stuff was bigger than was needed so now when I buy I get the smaller stuff.

Here's a size/weight chart for Cabelas Duo-Lock snap swivels.
I know what KF means by some swivels being to hard to open, especially the smaller ones.
I like this type, they seem easier to open for me.
I don't know if there more prone to opening under load than the other type, but I've never had an issue.
In their print catalog they have a picture size chart to give you a better idea.

As you can see, you have 4 choices at the # 25 rating.
?, Can you tie a loop in one end of that titanium wire and hook into a quality snap swivel on your main line.

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DUO-LOCK CHART

14: 15 lbs
12: 15 lbs
10: 20 lbs
8: 25 lbs
7: 25 lbs
6: 25 lbs
5: 25 lbs
3: 50 lbs
1: 55 lbs
2/0: 70 lbs
5/0: 100 lbs

Sounds good. I do know about the Perfection Loop knot.
The other advice makes sense.
Thx.

IF your a little slow on the knot tying like I am, then this might be a good way to learn at your "own" speed.

Either do the slow 1 step at a time forward/backward or view the video.

A great single resource for knots for all occasions.

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If you guys don't have the wire in your hands it's probably a waste of time to be thinking about knots. This is wierd stuff and there will be knot instruction on the package. Best to go that route first. Even the clinch knot they reccommend does NOT draw up like a typical fishing line knot.

Even crankbaits twist and twirl when they are cast so consider that when deciding to eliminate the swivels.

Kingfisher wrote on Mar 12^th, 2014 at 4:38am:


Your not hearing me. The perfection loop is what they suggest. I posted the link earlier. I have used the clinch type knots with titanium wire before and was less than impressed. Granted I was using it with salt water fish who pull 10x harder but the knot was still clunky and suspect and was inconsistent and occasionally failed (operator error perhaps?). I quit using it and went back to single strand wire.

Why not try the loop knot and test it? It ties up very small and neatly and I can probably tie one faster than a clinch. If there is a better way why not be open? But is it better?......I don't know for sure but I try and stay open......it is, after all, their product and it is what they suggest (at least in their promo vid) so I will give it a try and report back.

As per your lure twisting and turning even on casts I couldn't agree more.....sooner or later it will catch up with you....that is the reason I go with ball bearing barrel swivels at the line tie end....... and just one is plenty on cranks IMO.

 

Whatever. The entire point is how to tie the recommended knot with a swivel or snap not how to tie a loop in a line.....just trying to be helpful...... it is also important that the video show the hand placement as well........if not your just whistling Dixie.

But it is all conjecture for me. I haven't even tried the perfection loop with the stuff (now I'm whistling Dixie).........just going by my past experience with this fine knot and their suggestion and assuming success. That is the land of theory is it knot? (but I will get some soon and post the results).

Anyone have any problem tying the wire in a neat knot.  I cut a 18 inch piece and when both ends had been attached there was a 5 inch leader with ends that stuck out at a 45° angle to the wire.

Here is a picture of a finished clinch knot using 25lb nickel/titanium wire. Notice that it does not draw up tight like fishing line. I left the tag end a bit long so that it was more visible, it can be trimmed flush if you so desire.

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Kingfisher wrote on Mar 22^nd, 2014 at 3:32pm:


KF,

Thx for the photo, that's sorta how I pictured it.  I'm a leader "neophyte" and rarely use leaders, but this thread has me thinking of trying the titanium and learning to use it.  Could you maybe provide a picture showing the entire set-up -- from the lure to snap/swivel to other end of leader and then to your fishing line?  It would really help me and other neophytes if we could see the whole thing....

I tried the Cinch knot again and had better luck.  The Perfect Loop is an oval sticking out to one side.  I also tried to pull the knot down too tight.  One thing that helped was to start off  by wrapping the wire around the nose of needle nose pliers until it retained a 135° bend about 2 inches from the end of the wire.  Then put the swivel on the wire and tie the knot.

I just tied up a couple dozen leaders so I’ll pass along a few observations and some of my experience that you might find helpful if you want to tie your own.
Here are the specs for the materials used:

Nickel-Titanium Single Strand Leader Wire
25lb Test - .014” dia

Eagle Claw Lazer Powerlight Swivel
80lb Test – Size 6

SouthBend Ball Bearing Coast Lock Swivel
B/BISS-1    35lb Test-Size 1
B/BISS-0    20lb Test-Size 0

Tied using 5 half-turn Clinch Knot

Here are the tools I used:

2 ea needle nose pliers
1 ea side cutter pliers
2 ea 5” pieces of coat hanger wire
*Safety Glasses*

One thing I noticed is that the new batch of wire that I received is thicker. Previously 25lb test wire was .010” dia and the latest batch that I just got is 25lb test and .014”dia.
It’s a little thicker obviously and a little stiffer to work with but I used the same clinch knot and it made a nice leader although slightly more visible than before. In the future I will likely downsize to the smaller diameter.
A few things I found out while tying.
-Work on a white background in plenty of light.
-Leave the stuff coiled and pull out just enough for the first leader you want to tie. Make the first knot and only draw it up snug, don’t try to pull it tight yet. Pull on the tag end only with a pliers, you don’t want to crimp the leader part. Cut off the length you want plus 2-3” then tie the second knot on the opposite end to the snap or swivel. With both ends tied and snugged grab both tag ends with two pliers and draw the knots tight – when the wire stretches (you’ll clearly feel it) you are done. Trim off tag ends close to flush with the knot and then do a final test pull using a pair of 5” wires (sections of a coat hanger will work) through the very ends of the finished leader. You are testing the overall integrity of the leader now so make sure you pull from the very ends so that all of the hardware gets tested under load. I had one snap fail doing this but no knots.
-16” of Nickel Titanium wire will yield a 13”-14” leader. The minimum waste I could achieve was 3-4” per leader.
- The most efficient and useful knot I came up with was the clinch using 5 half-turns. This produced the strongest and tidiest knot with the small terminal hardware I selected.

Thanks KF I was using 8 half turns and 5 would make it easier to get a neater knot. So far just learning using some 15 Lb Swivels.

up KF

The reason I harp on the quality of materials and the longevity of components is because these leaders last for such a darn long time. Unlike standard cable style leaders that become kinked gnarly garbage after a couple of feisty northerns or trout. I would typically use about a dozen of those leaders per trip. These Nickel-Titanium leaders will handle an amazing amount of abuse and you will find that you can actually wear out the metal components before they kink or become twisted.

KF
I have taken some snaps off of the swivel and put then on the other end of the leader.  The Coast Lock Swivels look difficult to reuse the snap.  What do you use for a snap or are you putting the swivel on the lure end of the leader.

Magicpaddler wrote on Mar 27^th, 2014 at 11:55am:


One end of leader is the Coastlock snap/swivel combination listed above. The other end is the Eagle Claw swivel. So I end up with swivels at each end of the wire.

db wrote on Mar 29^th, 2014 at 7:33am:


I've never broken one at the wire or knot just at the terminal tackle. The way stuff flies apart when it does break while stretched under load is kinda serious. I came away bleeding when the snap broke. That's why safety glasses are a must.
The knot or a defect in your main fishing line should break LONG before one of these leaders.

After seeing today's POD,
I'm thinking you might want to up that #25 rating KF. 

solotripper wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2014 at 1:12pm:

Because I can. I don't really see much advantage to crimping. I suppose there would be less wire waste but then I would have to buy crimping ferrules. Not even sure you could get them small enough.
Have you seen the leaders? The wire is really thin and ties quite easily after a little practice.
Good thought though, might make the leaders a bit neater looking provided you could get tiny enough ferrules.

Quote:


I haven't seen the leader wire, so maybe leader sleeves wouldn't be good, assuming you could fine some small enough?
I just asked becasue tying them seems to be something that takes practice/patience and time.

Tied or crimped, you'd still test them, so assuming you could crimp them, it might be the way to go for some IF you could get small enough leader sleeves?

I've bought some items from this source, they sell everything tackle making related.

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I like choices. I'm just bringing questions/options like you did regarding the use of the perfection loop.

Not everyone is a do-it themselves type, or might have issues with their hands that make tying knots with wire hard for them.

Quote:


That may or may not work for everyone depending on your hand/grip strength or physical limitations.

KF is a very fit fellow. You work with your hands as well. I have no doubt I have the hand strength, but my question was to give others that may not a option.

I just ordered some line sleaves/crimpers and will get some #25 titanium wire and see what can be done.
I'll test it for strength, but not with a pull test involving/relying on hand/grip strength.

I'll post test results/pics regardless of the result.

I'm still waiting on all the items I need to try and crimp that Titanium wire instead of tying a knot in it.
I did a little research and found this website and a nice guide to crimping your own leaders if you so choose.
Lots of good info/tips on types of crimpers (4) and the various sleave types.

Scroll down he has some nice pictures of the right/wrong way to crimp. I learned something right a way about how/where to crimp.

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Kingfisher wrote on Apr 8^th, 2014 at 5:06am:


KF, I got the smallest sleeves I could find from
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They sent me their great catalog, which I highly recommend.

The 1 leader sleeve inside diameter is .033"
They sell the Knot 2 Kinky wire and have the different lb test diameters.

#25 is .010", so theoretically you could get three strands of wire into
the sleeve?

I have some ideas about that, but until I get all the supplies, I can't try them out.

That Leader-tec link guy is a fan of the double sleeve, but again, there much bigger than that fine titanium wire, but I have an idea about that too.

He says/claims that IF a leader fails at the crimp it's because the crimp was bad to begin with assuming your catch was within it's load limits. Salt water offers more issues involving the choice of crimp sleeve material and it's chemical reaction to salt.

IF I can get them to work, I'll send you some, and you can compare to your knotted ones.

I have a way to test them, that doesn't involve pulling on them with pliers, I'll talk about that IF I can crimp them.

Might be a complete flop, or maybe another option for people that have problems doing it your way.

I found VMC ready-made titanium leaders at Mills Fleet Farm for about $10 each.

Anyone used nanofil line? Looks good at about $20 per spool. Supposed to cast better and no stretch...

OS,
I did a cost breakdown for the materials I detailed above that included 25lb test wire and high quality ball bearing swivels and snaps.

14" leaders cost $2.25 each to make

Quote:


The wire I got was .010, that's why I could get those 3 strands in that .033 sleeve.

IF your latest purchase is the standard now, then 2x .014= .028, which "might" mean that I/we could just do a conventional sleeve crimp and not my McGyver version.

I still think the double sleeve on each end is a good idea, those #1 sleeves are as small as that wire.

If you read that Leader-tech info, he discusses the various types of crimpers.
He hates the cup to point type and recommends the cup to cup type, which I used.

pine_knot wrote on Apr 9^th, 2014 at 9:34pm:


These were taken in Macro-Mode, so that loop on the wire side, is about the size of a hook eye.

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Puckster wrote on Apr 10^th, 2014 at 10:14am:


Lure- coastlock snap- ball bearing swivel- nickel/titanium wire- swivel- Fireline Crystal (8lb test)

That's my preferred trolling set up

Quote:

I got these at Fleet and Farm

So one thing i notice while shopping swivels is that of those rated >25# they're bulky and expensive.  The spro power swivel in that pic is a size 7 rated at 75#, seems to spin freely, and is tiny compared to others rated at 1/2 the weight.  a 10 pack was under $5 (cabelas). the red snap is on the large side and will be replaced.  Did you know KF made mention of this nickel Ti wire in his BWJ article "down deep" back in 2010? Never noticed it before but after a re-read it jumped off the page.  (You need to Login or Register to view media files and links)

I've made about 8 leaders so far, and in the process I must have destroyed another 8 swivels!  They don't stand up to the stress test, using the hangars.  I have not been impressed with the SPRO swivels, snap or otherwise. 

My Fleet Farm didn't have the brands that KF suggests. 

Still, I have 8 leaders, so I'm probably done making leaders for the foreseeable future.  My experience with them this season will be instructive. 

puckster

I'm playing around with this stuff today. I bought the 25# wire at Bass Pro, and I also picked up some Malin single barrel sleeves. The wire is 0.014" and the sleeves are 0.033", so doubling the wire back through the sleeves leaves only .005".

I found that doubling the wire back through the sleeves was easy and clean. I could leave a nice small loop and crimp it down nicely. It felt good in hand, although I used some paracord to hang a 15# kettle bell and one crimp did fail - the wire backed out.

I am trying to tie some and finding that much more difficult; I've not made one good knot yet. I'm starting to wonder if I could crimp them down, and then tie off the tag end behind the crimp…

Anyway, I am hoping to test both crimped and tied models next week - assuming that I can get one tied. 

OOPS.. I mean connecting the braid to the flouro... 

I never could get a decent knot tied although I was more than happy with the crimping method I used as Ranger described.

I did have a few early attempts pull thru but I found a "fix' for the problem that seems to work fine.

After you double the wire back thru the crimp sleeve. Use a pair of needle nose pliers sideways and  make the smallest 90 degree bend you can on tip of wire.

Make your loop and crimp. If you have some excess on tip above crimp ferrule, snip off flush as you can.
That little extra jamming against ferrule fixed the problem.