Guest Message
Hi there Guest,

It looks like you are enjoying reading our forum, so why don't you register an account with us to stop seeing this message and benefit from many more features. Registration is easy and will only take you a few minutes.

If you already have an account with us, then click here to log in.

Thank you,

db

 10 4 boats/ 1 rack (Read 9373 times)
mastertangler
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 3111
Location: florida
Joined: Feb 1st, 2010
4 boats/ 1 rack
Apr 25th, 2011 at 4:52pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
I'm struggling. My newbys are thinking of picking up a couple solo bell canoes while they still can. Whats the scoop with stacking for transport?.........the thought makes me a bit uneasy. I think I remember seeing it done but never paid any attention to how. Whose got the skinny on how it's done?

4 bell merlins..........1 roof rack..........I wonder if I can run them sideways? Strap 2 gunnel to gunnel? Rinse and repeat?

This is a different concern but I'll still throw it out there..........I'm not sure I want to see the 14 year old in a solo on Lake Superior. We will be on protected waters for the most part but that water can take your breath away in a hurry...........and this being his first time in a solo.........I'm a bit troubled.

We had them set up in a kev Bell Northwoods but they are liking the solo idea. Np problem with transport before as we put one of the solos inside the Northwoods.

Just found all this out yesterday.........been turning it around and around. any thoughts?
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
solotripper
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 8127
Location: clarkston MI
Joined: Mar 14th, 2005
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #1 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 5:26pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
When you say newbies, are you talking new to solo's/ tandems , new to paddling Isle Royale, or some combination of?

I would feel very uneasy as well IF this is anyones first solo experience, never mind a 14 year old.

 I could see 2 solo's and 1 tandem being more realistic. The newbies could alternate in a solo, and the tandem would be a better platform for a water rescue in the event someone went over.

I think it would take a very experienced solo paddler to rescue someone in the frigid waters of Superior. The shock and numbness of hitting that frigid water unless/even if your in a wet suit, would send most people in to a panic.

Now imagine trying to get someone into a solo without capsizing yourself. In a few minutes they will be at the point they can't help themselves. At least with a tandem, one person might be able to grab hold and the other paddle for shore. In a solo, unless they can hang on themselves, your in real trouble awful fast.

Superior is no place for your first solo experience. I would seriously discuss this and if they couldn't see the dangers, and be willing to compromise for safety, I would bow out or make it a solo trip.

I'd rather have them mad at me, than be witness/accomplice to a accident waiting to happen.

I've swam in Superior all 4x I backpacked the there. By swim, I mean I took a running start, dove in and maybe got out to chest deep water before scurrying back in. In those few seconds, I was already getting numb. Someone goes over in a solo, others try to help, with any sense of what could happen, you can see how it could quickly become a tragedy.

Others might say I'm being a chicken little, but experience has taught me that in situations that have the very real potential to be life threatening, being on the side of prudence and caution beats the alternative.

Now if they want to hump the canoes, and just do the interior lakes, that would be a different matter.
I don't envy your dilemma. But sometimes you have to go against others wishes when you know their doing something that's not in their best interests.


There's a old saying about why you should always wear a PFD while on Superiors waters :question

That's so they can identify the bodies Sad
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Wally13
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 331
Location: Bettendorf, IA
Joined: Jan 1st, 2008
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #2 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 6:00pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
DITTO...DITTO...DITTO  SoloTripper.

I just can't  support a 14 year old or any newbies soloing in Lake Superior. Too risky.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
Paddle_Guy
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 300
Location: Western Michigan
Joined: Feb 10th, 2003
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #3 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 8:40pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
It just sounds like one potential disaster after another.  I would be a wreck just trying to get the boats to the put-in.  Then, once on the water I'm not sure i could ever enjoy myself.  Not to mention the thought of how I would feel if something did go wrong.

Good Luck!
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mastertangler
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 3111
Location: florida
Joined: Feb 1st, 2010
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #4 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 9:02pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
Well that didn't take long............
At first I was pleased to think he would make the investment of 2 boats indicating that after 2 trips he liked it..........Alot

But the uneasiness set in shortly thereafter when I started thinking about the big water........ You have stiffened my resolve. I'll suggest he still pick up the boats but they need to stay home this summer. They can get some practice time in this fall and next spring and then maybe they can take them to WCP next summer.

2 solos, 1 tandem is the right mix.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Magicpaddler
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 1321
Location: Chicago Burbs
Joined: Jan 7th, 2004
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #5 - Apr 25th, 2011 at 10:02pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
I have been some what biased to bell canoes but when they are gone there is still plenty of good solos around.  Some of the other boats have come up with new methods of building canoes.   Savage River has some fascinating solo boats and they are lighter than bells.   Or check out Placidbaots.com or grbnewmandesigns.com/classicxl.htm.  In short I am not sure I would tell them to run out and buy a boat that they are not going to trip in this year because there will not be as good of boat on the market next year.
MagicPaddler
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mastertangler
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 3111
Location: florida
Joined: Feb 1st, 2010
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #6 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 1:31am
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
Good advice MP.........I will pass it on that there are indeed other good solos out there.

I hadn't even known they were entertaining the thought of picking up some new rides. I expressed my concerns to them this evening about the cold water and they were completely receptive and were in fact one step ahead of me wanting some practice time and are considering a trailer.

New boats or not I still intend to discourage them from paddling solos on Superior. Still going to be frigid in June. (hopefully the gigantimungus northerns will still be shallow........another reason for a bigger boat Wink )





  
Back to top
IP Logged
 
Preacher
Contributer
Subscriber
Offline



Posts: 1327
Location: COTU
Joined: Apr 10th, 2010
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #7 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 2:26pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
I'd be concerned about inexperienced paddlers in solo boats for the first time on Superior.

If the weather permits practicing rescues would be a fun afternoon.  Everyone in their boats.  Learn how hard/easy it can be to dump a canoe kneeling/sitting hands on/off the gunwales.  Solo self-rescue, canoe-over-canoe rescue.

Even if folks learn they can't do it they would have that much more self-awareness.  Trouble happens when people push their limits.  Tragedy happens when they don't know what to do or even what they're capable of after they're in the water.

For example, I know from trial & error that I can't self-rescue in my canoe.  Should I dump in a serious situation I know I'm not going to waste time, energy, heat trying to get back in the canoe.

Otherwise don't sweat too much over it.  Odds are that nothing bad is going to happen.
Painters on all boats.  PFDs on at all times.  Most boating accidents are the result of poor judgement & plain honest stupidity.
  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
solotripper
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 8127
Location: clarkston MI
Joined: Mar 14th, 2005
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #8 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 3:40pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
[quote]Otherwise don't sweat too much over it.  Odds are that nothing bad is going to happen.
Painters on all boats.  PFDS on at all times.  Most boating accidents are the result of poor judgment & plain honest stupidity. [/quote

One way to look at it. I'm assuming your " group leader"?
My question to you is, " IF something bad happens, what would you be willing to do to save a life? Risk others lives no matter the odds? Do what's prudent and live with the consequences? When something bad happens there's little comfort in knowing it was a long shot.

Practicing the self rescue techniques Preacher mentioned in a inland lake may or may not help your cause. Even if they can do everything mentioned, in the frigid waters of Superior with your body going numb in minutes, I doubt any but the most experienced canoeist's could pull it off. It might give them a false sense of safety/competence that won't translate in the frigid Superior waters.
PFD's are great, they'll keep above water and save energy you'd use treading water without them. Painters are great too, but unless you could secure a line to the PFD of the dumped canoes occupant they probably wouldn't be able to hang onto a line for very long if at all.
I have a D-Ring on the chest of my PFD. I suppose if you rigged a Carabiner with a spring loaded gate to each canoes stern painter and could somehow clip to PFD of person in the water, you could then kneel and tow them into shore?
I mentioned before that on one backpack trip on Isle Royale, we were camped at Windingo waiting to take the shuttle back around next day to Rock Harbor and our flight home. We ran into a solo kayak-er that had dumped coming into Windingo Harbor running from a sudden squall on the open water.
He had a full wet suit and it was all he could do to get his kayak righted/bailed even in the calm waters. In the open waters, he didn't think he wouldn't been able to do it. Said he probably would of bailed and swam for shore.
I still think the tandem/ 2 solo's is the best compromise between prudence/safety and the odds that nothing is probably going to go wrong.
IF you can convince them to go that route, maybe you can try a real world experiment. If I remember correctly, there are some very nice campsites right out on Superior. One I remember had a nice little protected bay, sand beach, relatively shallow shelf.
Put on your bathing suits/PFD's go out waist/chest deep and dump your empty solo canoes and see who can get back in on their own. Who can feel their extremities after a few minutes Shocked
Then you can talk about a 4 solo trip Wink

  
Back to top
 
IP Logged
 
mastertangler
Inukshuk
Offline



Posts: 3111
Location: florida
Joined: Feb 1st, 2010
Re: 4 boats/ 1 rack
Reply #9 - Apr 26th, 2011 at 3:59pm
Quote Quote Print Post Print Post  
Should be interesting. I think I made it clear in a subtle sort of way that even if they spring for the solos I don't think it is a good idea bringing them to Isle Royale.

We are cutting across the island via the inland lakes then north into the "five finger" area of Superior and returning by way of the notorious duncan bay/rock harbor portage. Perhaps on the inland lakes they can use the solos and get a taste.

Good comments all......... and I thank you for them.
  
Back to top
IP Logged
 

 
  « The Put-In ‹ Board  ^Top